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Slouppi • View topic - Grades

Slouppi

Rock climbing and Bouldering in Finland
It is currently Thu Apr 02, 2020 02:29

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PostPosted: Wed May 12, 2004 13:07 
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Jody/Olli wrote:...

<loud London accent>Oi! You two. Leave it out.</loud London accent>

This is serious thread about grades. Argue about Finnish and British impacts on world politics elsewhere please. :evil: Easier bouldering grades or nothing please.

p.s. Olli - my month old baby is called Olli; but despite your excellent OTE article, I hasten to add that he wasn't actually named in your honour.


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PostPosted: Wed May 12, 2004 13:15 
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Toby: Of course mr. Thaw is doing stuff with a cameraman - he makes his living with sponsor's money!

Jody: How much is there really discussion over, say. Hottentotti's grade on this forum? I can't see any... The discussion is most hectic on lower grades, thanks to Toby amongst others.

I don't mean to say it's wrong or stupido to carry on this chit-chat, but as olli put it, most of the well seasoned climbers in this country, olli and his likes, just don't do it on forums. And they don't even do it while climbing or over the beer. They just climb, and rate routes and problems rather by they beauty than pure difficulty.

This applies as far as I am concerned to most people, of course there are folks who do the gradetalk all the time too. But a few only.

it just seems to be like that - in Finland...


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PostPosted: Wed May 12, 2004 13:15 
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Olli: ?

With regards to Turku I have to comment what a lovely place Luolavuori is (area C that is I didn’t see the rest). Beautiful boulders in a beautiful and quiet setting. As far as the grades are concerned me and the two other climbers didn’t think they were so bad (up to grade 6 that is), although "warming up" on Nousu (4) nearly gave us all a flash pump.

While I am on the topic, where does Joogo finish? is it straight up after going around the first corner or do you have to traverse further and reach the next corner (i.e. near "Oho, eiku" )before topping out?

Another question is whether there are any plans for a separate Bouldering guide for Finland in the near future.


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PostPosted: Wed May 12, 2004 13:28 
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ok, here's a serious comment on bouldering grades.

\begin{preach}
to me it's fairly obvious that most grading systems have a resolution that's far too high, assuming they're meant to be as objective as possible. something like four grades in all would be the most appropriate: easy, medium, hard and bloody hard.

i mean, don't we all grade problems like that subconciously anyway?
so whatever your level, find those intervals and adapt them to the system used, and you'll be happy as a clam!

the most important attribute of a boulder problem is quality anyway, so look yourselves in the mirror and ask how many good problems with a sandbag grade have you done lately? and how about overgraded shitty ones?

collect stars, not number people! improves your karma!
\end{preach}


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PostPosted: Wed May 12, 2004 13:29 
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jody, i don't really know the problems of luolavuori. i've been there few times but haven't ever seen a topo. my best guess is that they go the easiest way up. otherwise they are variations or eliminations and thus not real problems. heh! had to say it..

i have been thinking of making a topo and actually have made few drafts but i realised that making a comprehensive topo will be hell of a job! i'm pretty happy to make all the work at home but walking around in the woods and try to locate all the blocs on a map.. i rather climb! we'll see. even if i decided to do it, it would take, say, two years and in that time it would completely be out-of-date. people are putting so many new problems and opening new areas and even now there are number of areas i haven't even seen and prolly another number i haven't heard of. that's cool.

toby, c'mon - sure you have named your kid after me.. congrats anyroad!


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PostPosted: Wed May 12, 2004 13:37 
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MRoutsi wrote:

Jody: How much is there really discussion over, say. Hottentotti's grade on this forum?


Could the lack of discussion about Hottentotti's grade be because hardly anybody has climbed it. I cannot look at a problem and generate an opinion about its grade, if you can then you are a better man than me.

MRoutsi wrote:
I can't see any... The discussion is most hectic on lower grades, thanks to Toby amongst others


I dont understand the problem with hectic discussion (not that this discussion is in anyway hectic), is it in anyway preventing you from discussing your more 'important' topics.


MRoutsi wrote:
I don't mean to say it's wrong or stupido to carry on this chit-chat, but as olli put it, most of the well seasoned climbers in this country, olli and his likes, just don't do it on forums. And they don't even do it while climbing or over the beer. They just climb, and rate routes and problems rather by they beauty than pure difficulty.


Well bully for them, your depiction of the 'pure' climber nearly brought a tear to my eye. Just because some climbers choose not concern themselves with grades (fine by me) doesnt mean that others cannot. To choose climbs solely based on there grade is daft but on the other hand to say grades mean nothing is naive. Top end climbers can afford to ignore grades because they do not run the risk of just turning up at a crag/boulder and finding out that there is no routes/problems that they can climb (a risk for low to medium grade climbers such as myself).

I personally neither like nor dislike discussions on grades what I am offended by is the idea that those that choose not to discuss grades are in some way better climbers than those that do.

Olli: Yeap, Usually its the easiest way up but with this problem it was tricky to tell since the continued traverse looked like an obvious line and it had chalk on it where as the other line did not.

Slouppi does do a good job of keeping tads on new climbing areas it has to be said.

In my humble opinion using stars as a means to choose what problems to climb is not the best system. Whether a probelm is good or not depends so much on the climber, not only his/her height and style but also his/her ( I wish english had a word for 'Han') personality. By concerntrating on problems with stars you run the risk of ignoring hidden classics.


Last edited by Jody on Wed May 12, 2004 13:56, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed May 12, 2004 13:47 
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Jody wrote:
I personally neither like or dislike discussions on grades what I am offended by is the idea that those that choose not to discuss grades are in some way better climbers than those that do.


everyone has their weak moments and succumbs to arguments about grades. but the absolute truth is that the one taking grades less seriously is always and in every way the better climber.

the righteous will inherit the boulder fields.


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PostPosted: Wed May 12, 2004 13:57 
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Agreed with Tommy.

One always grades problems due to his/her current condition: either it was easy or not, easier than last year and so on.

But who cares to talk about them over and over? If you can't make one problem, walk to next one and try that. Or go to another area, there are lots of them around.

Nobody is saying that climbing skils and gradetalk have something to do with each other. But with happiness over one's personal achievements it really has a lot to do!


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PostPosted: Wed May 12, 2004 14:02 
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olli wrote:
toby, c'mon - sure you have named your kid after me.. congrats anyroad!


OK - you're right. We did. I just didn't want it to go to your head! :lol:

I still think the "I just climb for the quality of the route" thing is hippy-bollocks. Everyone likes to know they're making some progress, burning off the mates etc. The routes that stick in my mind at least, tend to be the harder ones (for me) as well, as they take more effort mental and physical. Thats why people go to the trouble of training.

I do find it a bit odd that on a climbing forum people would suggest though that climbing issues don't need to be discussed?! :-? What's the point of the kind people who did all the coding and design to make Slouppi. If you find discussing say - middle east politics more interesting - thats great but shouldn't you be on site about middle east politics not about Finnish climbing? Also - MRuotsi, I don't think I've asked about grades for ages... having looked in the archive not for a year.

Basically, all I want is some good standard boulder problems at lower grades, so I can have a valid opinion on the grades at some of the newer venues.

Finally - to show I dif the karmic-love-thang-hippy-bollocks as well: Climbing at Viirilä on sunday evening, warm enough at 9.30 pm to not wear a shirt, toping out of problems to see the sun low in the sky, and the beautiful view over the amazing dissappearing city of Helsinki. Whatever you think of Helsinki, it is quite special how when you are on the top of hill it dissappears and looking out all you can see is trees with the odd building popping through here and there. It is a magic little spot.


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PostPosted: Wed May 12, 2004 14:04 
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tommy wrote:
everyone has their weak moments and succumbs to arguments about grades. but the absolute truth is that the one taking grades less seriously is always and in every way the better climber.


I don’t believe that good climbers never talked about grades even when they started out. As you progress through the grades to the highest level, grades must lose there meaning since top level stuff must simply be bloody hard. But for medium to low end climbers grades are a way of measuring progress (something nearly all climbers like to do) and they are also ( as mentioned in previous post ) act as a guide to the places worth visiting.


Last edited by Jody on Wed May 12, 2004 14:08, edited 2 times in total.

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tommy wrote:
but the absolute truth is that the one taking grades less seriously is always and in every way the better climber.


Brilliant! So, that makes me a better climber than whoever is the top of the 8a.nu scorecard table then? Cool. Who wants to hold my rope as I flash this 8b+?


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PostPosted: Wed May 12, 2004 14:19 
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Toby wrote:
I still think the "I just climb for the quality of the route" thing is hippy-bollocks. Everyone likes to know they're making some progress, burning off the mates etc. The routes that stick in my mind at least, tend to be the harder ones (for me) as well, as they take more effort mental and physical. Thats why people go to the trouble of training.


of course. the best kicks come from quality problems that are hard for you.

the point i'm desperately trying to make is that you know when you've done something harder than ever before, you don't need any numbers to tell you that.

what numbers can do is enable you to compare your achievements to other peoples', or to lure yourself into thinking you've done your hardest thing ever when really you've just found a problem that suits your style.

of course they give an indication of what is a good warmup and what needs a good warmup before attempting, which is why i think grades are great! but any detailed or passionate discussion about them only reveals that the person engaged is climbing for other reasons than personal satisfaction. sure as hell guilty myself there once in a while![/i][/u]


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PostPosted: Wed May 12, 2004 14:47 
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tommy wrote:
of course they give an indication of what is a good warmup and what needs a good warmup before attempting, which is why i think grades are great!


Agree. Hence it is good if all boulder problems are graded with some level of consistency (which is the only reason why I started the thread!!!).

Quote:
but any detailed or passionate discussion about them only reveals that the person engaged is climbing for other reasons than personal satisfaction. sure as hell guilty myself there once in a while


Don't agree. How can you say that? Some people might climb just to do harder and harder grades. Olympic 100 mtr runners aren't doing it for the nice views are they? I'm happy to accept that I'm interested in the grades of routes amongst many other things, I don't think that makes me souless.


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PostPosted: Wed May 12, 2004 14:48 
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Has it been raining too much lately (1+ day) in Finland or is it otherwise just shitty weather as you are arguing about some grades? Booring, just booring ... :roll:


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PostPosted: Wed May 12, 2004 15:09 
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Toby wrote:
Quote:
but any detailed or passionate discussion about them only reveals that the person engaged is climbing for other reasons than personal satisfaction. sure as hell guilty myself there once in a while


Don't agree. How can you say that? Some people might climb just to do harder and harder grades. Olympic 100 mtr runners aren't doing it for the nice views are they? I'm happy to accept that I'm interested in the grades of routes amongst many other things, I don't think that makes me souless.


well, as i said, you should be able to tell by yourself whether you're improving or not. if you've been climbing well lately and finally do a problem that took you 600 tries then you've probably surpassed yourself. simple!

sure, it's nice to realize one is regularly climbing a letter above last year, which also tells you you've become stronger. but arguing about whether a problem is 7a+ or 7b doesn't seem to have any relevance except for what i've been yapping on about above.

of course, being pure in both thought and deed may make it easier for me to see these things :wink:

and mikael: how can you think a philosophical debate about bouldering grades is boring? undoubtedly your intellect has been corrupted by some evil icelandic brew.


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