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Slouppi • View topic - Grades

Slouppi

Rock climbing and Bouldering in Finland
It is currently Thu Sep 19, 2019 04:05

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PostPosted: Wed May 12, 2004 15:18 
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Joined: Fri Apr 26, 2002 02:00
Posts: 276
[quote="Toby Some people might climb just to do harder and harder grades. Olympic 100 mtr runners aren't doing it for the nice views are they? I'm happy to accept that I'm interested in the grades of routes amongst many other things, I don't think that makes me souless.[/quote]

There are lots of people who do stuff for grades. And their motivation to climb can easily be the same as 100 mtr runners: to win the comp!

If one is competing in climbing, it's just fine. But for most people climbing is just fun stuff to do without competition and perpetual comparison to other's achievements - a hobby. A hobby free of middle east war or Iraq-situation and such. It can even be an escape route from bad bad world. Or a lifestyle. And they don't want this technocratic comparison-attitude to their dear passtime activity.

That's why people are arguing against you, Toby.


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PostPosted: Wed May 12, 2004 18:00 
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MRoutsi wrote:
There are lots of people who do stuff for grades. And their motivation to climb can easily be the same as 100 mtr runners: to win the comp!

If one is competing in climbing, it's just fine. But for most people climbing is just fun stuff to do without competition and perpetual comparison to other's achievements - a hobby


Although I have not met Toby I believe I am correct in saying that he like me are climbing for a hobby not a profession. I thus have two problems with your argumentation.

1. Competing at a hobby is fun also, I mean kinkkuboulder was hardly packed with professionals.

2. Grades dont have to be anything about comparing yourself to other they can be about comparing yourself to yourself. Dont give me this nonsense that you really know when you have done your hardest problem, I can hardly remember what I had for breakfast this morning. Anyway whether a problem seems hard on a particular day depends so much on the weather, attitude, energy levels, encouragement to name a few. Thats partly why grades are important, they get rid of some of this subjectivity.

Mikael: If this post is so boring why on earth are you replying. Have you nothing better to do than give pointless opinions on a topic that you believe is pointless.


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PostPosted: Wed May 12, 2004 18:29 
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Location: nybacka - uusmäki
mikael: well these discussions seem to be the most fun to me. take a look at henkkas topics few years back. excellent stuff!

routsi: "A hobby free of middle east war or Iraq-situation and such"
maybe you've seen these already:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/3698091.stm
http://www.buffalonews.com/editorial/20 ... 037001.asp
the swiss guy is supposed to be elie chevieux.

anyway, back to the topic. i suppose i understand toby's point and somehow feel the same that the lower end of boudering grades in finland are a mess (well sometimes..). but do you really have a need for consistent gradings in the lower end? isn't it fun that the 5- spits you off repeatedly?

take fontainebleau for example, the grades are a complete mess in the lower end. 5+ might be between finnish 5 or 7 almost. but everyone takes it as typical attribute to font which spices your trip a bit. in the harder end (personal, that is) i might do a problem graded 10 which feels quite easy, after that i might do a problem graded 9 that is bloody hard. this is the point where i feel the grades loose their meaning to me. i definitely know which was harder to me, no matter what the number is.

schite, now i've done it. i'm quilty.

but, like tommy said it's quality what counts. but, someone elses quality might be someone elses boring lowball or crappy highball. in my opinion there is no need to "correct" the finnish bouldering grades, some oddities make things just a little more interesting. and don't stop grading, it's too much fun to listen people argue :)


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PostPosted: Wed May 12, 2004 18:40 
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Joined: Fri Dec 21, 2001 02:00
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Location: Porvoo
Jody wrote:
Mikael: If this post is so boring why on earth are you replying. Have you nothing better to do than give pointless opinions on a topic that you believe is pointless.


Jody, I suggest loosing the bolts that keeps the metalbarrel around your head too tight, might hurt a little bit and feels much better and makes it easier to be relaxed. Sorry for my clumsly way of explaining things (suomeksi: kiristääkö vanne päätä liikaa, löysää pultit?)

Otherwise it does not bother me at all what you discuss here but I suppose that even I have the right to tell my opinion ...


Jody wrote:
Anyway whether a problem seems hard on a particular day depends so much on the weather, attitude, energy levels, encouragement to name a few. Thats partly why grades are important, they get rid of some of this subjectivity.


How would scientically calculated grades help solve this problem? I suppose rest and some bear is more relevant for doing the problem next time? If you send a hard problem after trying it 2 weeks, your training has been successful. If not, train more if you feel so, or try another problem. I think this is what bouldering is all about: exceeding the limits of what seems possible.

I, and obviously some others also, do not seem to understand what´s the problem with the grades. plah, enough said for me now 8)


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed May 12, 2004 18:50 
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Location: Porvoo
samppa wrote:
mikael: well these discussions seem to be the most fun to me. take a look at henkkas topics few years back. excellent stuff!

routsi: "A hobby free of middle east war or Iraq-situation and such"
maybe you've seen these already:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/3698091.stm
http://www.buffalonews.com/editorial/20 ... 037001.asp
the swiss guy is supposed to be elie chevieux.


Yep, yep, I could not find anything but French pages but that seems right :-(


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PostPosted: Wed May 12, 2004 21:51 
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Joined: Tue Oct 15, 2002 02:00
Posts: 75
Mikael wrote:
Jody, I suggest loosing the bolts that keeps the metalbarrel around your head too tight, might hurt a little bit and feels much better and makes it easier to be relaxed. Sorry for my clumsly way of explaining things suomeksi: kiristääkö vanne päätä liikaa, löysää pultit?


I am relaxed thank you, where I come from my reaction would be considered relaxed.

Mikael wrote:
How would scientifically calculated grades help solve this problem?


Grades are hardly "scientically calculated" they are or at least should be based on the consensus of a group of climbers who are tall/short, strong/technical and who have worked the problem in various conditions.

I have no problem with most grades but I think everyone has the right to input if they think some need altering (and this forum is good medium in which to do it). This feedback allows the the process described in the above paragraph to take place. If more people give feedback then the grades get honed to their correct level. Why would anyone have a problem with that? (Mikael?) If talking or commenting about grades is not your thing then dont do it.

Samppa wrote:
... but do you really have a need for consistent gradings in the lower end? isn't it fun that the 5- spits you off repeatedly?


I guess so, but it is taking a elite boulderers perspective. You are not saying that grading in the higher end can be inconsistent only those in the lower end. If those in the higher end were all over the place ( not that I believe lower grades are, mind) would that still be fun?. The reason I ask is that to some people the lower grades are the higher end. It might not be so much fun for them that lower grades are inconsistent.

I think though that bouldering grades do not need so much discussion as route (especailly trad) grades since there is less of a safety issue.


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PostPosted: Thu May 13, 2004 07:43 
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Location: nybacka - uusmäki
Jody wrote:
I guess so, but it is taking a elite boulderers perspective.


thank you. or did you mean that i was just taking their prespective, damn ;)

Jody wrote:
You are not saying that grading in the higher end can be inconsistent only those in the lower end.


but i was saying that they are. to some extent everywhere and it is not a problem. like one of the stronger boulderers once said after he did a new problem in vaasa: "if l'ange naif is 7c+ and this new one is much harder than l'ange naif then this new problem is 7c". mainly though i feel that all (low & higher end) the grades in finland are just ok as they are with some personal touch here and there.

Jody wrote:
I think though that bouldering grades do not need so much discussion as route (especailly trad) grades since there is less of a safety issue.


true

coming back to writing news to slouppi. i feel that to me atleast it is not so much the grades that matter in the news than knowing that someone has really outdone him/herself or done something special in finnish context. and you need grades to somehow present this.


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PostPosted: Thu May 13, 2004 11:26 
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Posts: 264
Jody wrote:
Grades are hardly "scientically calculated" they are or at least should be based on the consensus of a group of climbers who are tall/short, strong/technical and who have worked the problem in various conditions.


there won't ever be consensus because every problem favours one climber over another. that's why it's waste of energy to talk, talk and talk about the grades.

john sherman, who invented v-grades - named after his nickname verm - states in hueco tanks guidebook something like "the grades are exact in perfect conditions (a certain temp and humidity), when a climber is exactly as tall as me, his ape-index is same than mine and so on." and still there is classic hueco v4 grade that is always harder than v4.. go figure!


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PostPosted: Thu May 13, 2004 12:38 
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olli wrote:
there won't ever be consensus because every problem favours one climber over another. that's why it's waste of energy to talk, talk and talk about the grades


I don’t think that this is true. There will always be some awkward problems/routes where a grade cannot be agreed apon (dyno's, for example, are pretty tricky to grade). But for >95% of probelms/routes a consensus (maybe compromise is a better word) could be reached. To refer to the comment about all the chit-chat in the UK about grades, most of the chit-chat concentrates on a small number of problems/routes the rest are considered by the majority to have the right grade. An example of system of honing the grades is the Rockfax.com database. On this site people can and have voted for what they believe is the appropriate grade for a problem/route. By taking the average or mode (either would work I guess) of these votes a compromise is reached. The same system, all be it in a less organized manner, could take place on this forum.

olli wrote:
john sherman, who invented v-grades - named after his nickname verm - states in hueco tanks guidebook something like "the grades are exact in perfect conditions (a certain temp and humidity), when a climber is exactly as tall as me, his ape-index is same than mine and so on." and still there is classic hueco v4 grade that is always harder than v4.. go figure!


I am not saying that all grades should be exact, certain 5+ s, for example, will always be harder than others since grades are qualitative not quantitative. But I believe that if somebody comes across a problem that is way off (i.e. obviously not the grade in the topo) then there is no harm in that person coming forward and presenting their finding.

And hell even if somebody just wants start a thread about the grade of an interesting problem/route they just did or didnt do then whats so bad. People always have the option to ignore threads if they so desire. What most people on this thread are advocating is a form of censorship, allowing only the topics that deem interesting to be on this forum.


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PostPosted: Thu May 13, 2004 12:48 
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whatever. see, this thread has proved it right that you cannot find consensus. we cannot even agree if there can or cannot be exact grades. and i am starting getting pissed off to your opinions which is a clear sign to stop writing. so long..


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PostPosted: Thu May 13, 2004 12:56 
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Joined: Fri May 10, 2002 02:00
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Location: Imatra
numberwise they say that the boulder grading is about 3-4 steps behind the routes in the lower grades and 2-3 in the upper ones. if this is true even closely, someone climbing let´s say 6b sport routes should hike every 5 in the country any given moment. in some cases it isn´t so. for me it seems quite funny that somewhere the grades seem to be intentionally veeeery low. quite funny nothing else :D

this all might be way off topic but I added it anyway :D


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu May 13, 2004 12:57 
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olli wrote:
whatever. see, this thread has proved it right that you cannot find consensus. we cannot even agree if there can or cannot be exact grades. and i am starting getting pissed off to your opinions which is a clear sign to stop writing. so long..


Hell throw a paddy, I was rather enjoying this debate since it takes me away from my thesis. We were even agreeing that there cannot be exact grades, the issue ( well at least I thought ) was whether grades should be discussed on this forum.


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PostPosted: Thu May 13, 2004 13:01 
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jolli wrote:
numberwise they say that the boulder grading is about 3-4 steps behind the routes in the lower grades and 2-3 in the upper ones. if this is true even closely, someone climbing let´s say 6b sport routes should hike every 5 in the country any given moment. in some cases it isn´t so


Actually I think it probably is, I climb up to 6b sport and havent come across a grade 5 boulder problem that I couldnt do.

I know I boulder the same grade as I sport climb. I think this is either because the sports grades in Finland are pretty stiff (although consistent) or I have no stamina.

An example of a sports route that is pretty tough is one of the new ones at Kvarnby, Evä (6b) I think. (i.e. right of Murkkuhalkeama 5+). I really enjoyed the route especailly the bouldery start. I reckon the start was a Font 6a boulder problem, this would mean that the route would given French 6c+/7a (i.e. 3-4 steps forward). I guess this raises the question of when a sports route is a boulder problem and vice versa?


Last edited by Jody on Thu May 13, 2004 13:16, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu May 13, 2004 13:06 
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Jody wrote:
olli wrote:
whatever. see, this thread has proved it right that you cannot find consensus. we cannot even agree if there can or cannot be exact grades. and i am starting getting pissed off to your opinions which is a clear sign to stop writing. so long..


Hell throw a paddy, I was rather enjoying this debate since it takes me away from my thesis. We were even agreeing that there cannot be exact grades, the issue ( well at least I thought ) was whether grades should be discussed on this forum.


heh, this is free country and one has right to hers/his opinion. i thought it was you who was basically saying that if you don't agree with me then don't read this thread. we(..) just expressed our opinion that it's complete waste of time and world would be a better place without exact grades. i quite like the hippie approach!


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PostPosted: Thu May 13, 2004 13:23 
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olli wrote:
heh, this is free country and one has right to hers/his opinion. i thought it was you who was basically saying that if you don't agree with me then don't read this thread. we(..) just expressed our opinion that it's complete waste of time and world would be a better place without exact grades. i quite like the hippie approach!


Of course everyone has the right to their opinion and I have no problem with the those with the 'Hippy' approach in the same way I have no problem with those that wish to talk about grades. If grades are not your thing then dont read those in a Topo, simple.


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