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Slouppi :: View topic - Invicta - Jaanankallio
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Invicta - Jaanankallio
http://www.slouppi.net/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1072
Page 1 of 2

Author:  Toby [ Mon May 02, 2005 08:04 ]
Post subject:  Invicta - Jaanankallio

Good effort on rebolting at Jaanankallio - but why does Invicta need a bolt? It follows a crackline from bottom to top and finishes at a tree?

If anyone wants another easy route at Jaanankallio, the little wall to the left of Moovijumppa with cracks up the middle can be climbed at 5-. I think it is where the icefalls form in winter, so "Icefall Wall" seems a good name. Jenni Leppavuori and myself climbed it in 2001, I don't know if it had been climbed before that.

Having watched my friend lead Rev it Up two weeks ago and when getting stuck on the crux, grab the anchor rather than finish the route, I still think that anchor should be moved onto the top of the route. It's badly placed where it is, as it changes the nature of the route and that's retrobolting.

Author:  slow [ Tue May 03, 2005 10:39 ]
Post subject: 

-"A popular cliff Jaanankallio at Hyvinkää/Kytäjä area got re-equipped last weekend. Teemu Ojala and Ari Kujanpää installed 6 new anchors and 17 bolts to the cliff. Main target was to correct older bolting and to improve safety, but also a new route 'Velli' (5- or 5a) was established. This line situates next to 'Sile Stone' on the right side. See the picture on the right.


Following improvements were made:
* Käkimassaa, an ancient 'super bold' route by Nikko Prauda was equipped with 3 bolts and an anchor
* Routes Moovijumppa, Pyhimys, Vompatti, Antipatia, Magma Red and Silestone got new anchors
* Routes Woodpecker, Magma Red, Stinger and Haliba were rebolted
* Invicta got one bolt to the upper slab"-


Keeping fixed protection in good shape is always a worthwhile endeavor. However, I agree with Toby on his remarks On Rev it up etc. (was there when your friend led it, lent you the pad)

Also, I'm somewhat saddened by the retrobolting of Käkimassaa. While it by no means is a classic line it was still a break from the clip-ups. Then again, I don't know why it was deemed worth bolting. Perhaps someone could offer an explanation. Granted, it will probably see more traffic now but isn't there enough potential for new bolted clims so the established lines could be left as they are?

The climb is mentioned to be ancient which in this case means ten years. There are a plethora of climbs a lot older than that in Finland and they seem to get by just fine without extra bolts. At the time of the first ascent I remember talking to Teemu about it and understood that it will not be bolted but I suppose the trends change.

I don't mean to start a massive argument with this remark. In the grand scheme of things all this is pretty trivial. In about 80 years or so, all of us will be dead and gone. The rock will probably stay there but so will the holes in it.

Good climbing to everyone, regardless.

Samaa pärinää kotimaisella:

En täysin ymmärrä miksi Käkimassaa päätettiin pultittaa mutta kenties Teemu voisi kertoa päätökseen johtanet syyt. Reittihän ei kuulu klassikoiden kirkkaimpaan kärkeen mutta olipa kuitenkin poikkeus ja kuriositeetti. Varmasti liikenne reitillä lisääntyy mutta uusiakin linjoja löytyy joten mielestäni vanhoja olisi varaa jättää alkuperäiseen tilaansa.

Reitti mainitaan muinaiseksi ja kenties asenteenikin ovat. Ensinousun aikaan keskustelimme pulttien poraamisesta reitille ja ymmärsin tuolloin ettei näin tulisi tapahtumaan. Mutta ajat muuttuvat.

Tarkoitukseni ei ole ärsyttää ketään tällä kommentoimisella, maailmasta löytynee kuitenkin merkityksellisempiäkin asioita kuin pultit ja kiipeily pikku kallioillamme. Tämänkin lukijakunnan kuolleisuusprosentti vaikkapa 80:n vuoden kuluttua lienee tasan sata. Kallio silti pysynee paikallaan siitäkin eteenpäin, samoin siihen poratut reiät.

Hyvää kiipeilykesää kaikille joka tapauksessa,

nikko

Author:  canClimbWillClimb [ Fri May 06, 2005 09:26 ]
Post subject: 

You dont like the bolt, dont clip it. Simple as that.

Author:  Toby [ Fri May 06, 2005 12:15 ]
Post subject: 

canClimbWillClimb wrote:
You dont like the bolt, dont clip it. Simple as that.


Don't be an arse.

Can I start chipping holds on boulder problems I can't do because, after all, if you don't like the new holds you can just use the old ones?

Author:  Pauli [ Fri May 06, 2005 21:45 ]
Post subject: 

I agree with Toby and nikko. We should respect old routes and conserve the original routes. Those bold lines are inspiring. :)

Author:  ilmari [ Sat May 07, 2005 01:38 ]
Post subject: 

I'm with Toby and guys here.

I think the existing routes should only be bolted if they really can't be protected otherwise. I mean if there's an unbolted route that you just would have to solo, then you can consider bolting. Maybe. And in this case you should ask the person who climbed and named the particular route for permission and respect his/her view.

Author:  Sampsa J. [ Sun May 08, 2005 08:52 ]
Post subject: 

Toby wrote:
Can I start chipping holds on boulder problems I can't do because, after all, if you don't like the new holds you can just use the old ones?

Good point. A very good point.

Author:  Pete [ Mon May 09, 2005 11:05 ]
Post subject: 

What`s the problem here??? :o

If Teemu wants to change and make new bolting to some of his own routes, I think that is his own choice.

This was the same thing, when Solvalla and Kvarnby cliffs got new bolts. Somebody is complaining...

I want to ask, how many of these climbers who are complaining here, have ever cleaned or bolted new lines?? The work Teemu and co have done in the Hyvinkää district is outstanding and without his work there would not be any routes to complain about.

Author:  Jody [ Mon May 09, 2005 11:41 ]
Post subject: 

Pete: Dont mistake a debate for an argument or complaint. The work done at Jaankallio and other crags is great and everybody should congratulate Teemu and co on their efforts. That said the if bolts on Rev it up and possibly invicta (although I havent done this one yet) are in a bad place people have the right to voice this opinion because:

1. The routes could have been damaged for subsequent generations.

2. Future bolting could avoid the same mistakes.

Nearly all of the bolting I have seen in finland has been excellent, in fact the only examples of bad bolting I have experienced are the top anchors on Rev it up and Itäblokki in Kräkiniemi. As with these routes placing bolt anchors before the top out can detract from a route, maybe debates such as this might prevent future small mistakes in anchor/bolt placement.

Cheers,
Jody

Author:  Pete [ Mon May 09, 2005 11:55 ]
Post subject: 

Jody,

the point I was making is that always we should give credit to the routesetter for doing SOMETHING. Not start with a negative issue.
I am not saying that bolting in those routes could not have been done better but if you do a lot, there always is a bigger possibility of doing something wrong (or what could have been done better). I know this because I have done routes also quite quickly and afterwards I have noticed that some of the bolting could have been done otherwise.
Routesetters very seldomly get positive feedback of their routes at least in Finland, but if there is somehing wrong in bolting, you definitely get the negative feedback.
Well anyway, that was my point...

Author:  Jody [ Mon May 09, 2005 12:35 ]
Post subject: 

Pete

True routesetters dont get the credit they deserve but as with anything people are always more likely to voice a "negative" opinion (although if it is constructive like most of the opinions on this thread I would not consider it negative). I have set up new routes and problems (although not bolted) and positive feedback is always limited but that would not stop me from developing more new lines. I just assumed it was the Finnish way not to voice opinions just for the sake of voicing opinions (either that or my routes and problems are just crap).

Also to be fair to Toby he did start by thanking the bolters.

Constructive "Negative" feedback should not be considered as less valid as positive feedback. Placing anchors 1 metre too low maybe due to a small mistake during the act of bolting but unfortunately the reprecussions of such a small mistake can seriously damage a route for as long as the bolt lasts (with the high quality bolts being placed in Finland this could be a while). Nobody is really blaming the bolter (or at least they shouldnt) rather they see a problem/issue that the bolter has missed and point it out to see if anything needs/should be done about it.

Anyway enough waffle form me.

Cheers,
Jody

Author:  Heik [ Mon May 09, 2005 12:44 ]
Post subject: 

It seems to me that Pete have not noticed Toby's first sentence in this thread: "Good effort on rebolting at Jaanankallio - ..." That clearly is a positive feedback.

Author:  Toby [ Mon May 09, 2005 14:07 ]
Post subject: 

Pete wrote:
the point I was making is that always we should give credit to the routesetter for doing SOMETHING.


Talking generally, and not specifically about Jaanankallio, that's a bit of silly point. To go back to the chipping comparison - the chipper is doing 'something'. Its just something we don't want him or her to do.

My position on Rev it Up is that the bolting was completely unnecessary in the first place. I don't see why anyone took the time and money to put the anchor in there (there is a large tree two metres away), and that where the anchor is now actively detracts from the route. The argument that it makes toproping easier is pretty pathetic (if people can't work out how to put slings around a large tree and set up a toprope that way, they really shouldn't be climbing). I felt very similar when Heros in Heaven was retrobolted: the result was a worse route, not a better one. I asked specifically about Invicta as I led it onsight a few years ago and there is a crack all the way up; so why do you need a bolt there?

I think its great that people are willing to take the responsibility to make sure the fixed gear on sports routes stays in good condition, but that doesn not mean all bolts are good.

Author:  Pete [ Mon May 09, 2005 14:16 ]
Post subject: 

Yes,

Toby did give credit for rebolting, I did not see that earlier.

Author:  Rami [ Mon May 09, 2005 16:38 ]
Post subject: 

'Invicta' goes up slightly left directing crack. Climbers usually descent by using a tree on the left where the obvious crack ends. However, the route can be continued further up to the top over the slab on the right. The new bolt in question is added on this slab which cannot be otherwise protected. Someone correct if I'm wrong with this.

I find scary natural routes inspiring, but in a case of 'Käkimassaa', I do understand the bolting. In practise the route cannot be naturally protected and most probably it hasn't seen any repetitions. Nikko's first ascent is exceptional, but a climbable route in this case is probably better than a curiosity. There isn't that much potential left in Jaanankallio and the line (or face) offers some nice climbing.

Just a personal opinion referring only to this specific route.

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