Deprecated: Function set_magic_quotes_runtime() is deprecated in /var/www/customers/klippi/public_html/phpBB3/common.php on line 106
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file /includes/session.php on line 160: htmlspecialchars(): charset `iso8859-10' not supported, assuming utf-8
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file /includes/session.php on line 87: htmlspecialchars(): charset `iso8859-10' not supported, assuming utf-8
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file /includes/session.php on line 129: htmlspecialchars(): charset `iso8859-10' not supported, assuming utf-8
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file /includes/session.php on line 130: htmlspecialchars(): charset `iso8859-10' not supported, assuming utf-8
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file /includes/session.php on line 214: htmlspecialchars(): charset `iso8859-10' not supported, assuming utf-8
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file /includes/session.php on line 916: Cannot modify header information - headers already sent by (output started at /common.php:106)
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file /includes/session.php on line 916: Cannot modify header information - headers already sent by (output started at /common.php:106)
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file /includes/session.php on line 916: Cannot modify header information - headers already sent by (output started at /common.php:106)
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file /includes/session.php on line 1454: htmlspecialchars(): charset `iso8859-10' not supported, assuming utf-8
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file /includes/functions.php on line 3529: Cannot modify header information - headers already sent by (output started at /common.php:106)
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file /includes/functions.php on line 3531: Cannot modify header information - headers already sent by (output started at /common.php:106)
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file /includes/functions.php on line 3532: Cannot modify header information - headers already sent by (output started at /common.php:106)
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file /includes/functions.php on line 3533: Cannot modify header information - headers already sent by (output started at /common.php:106)
Slouppi • View topic - What do people think of the topo guide?

Slouppi

Rock climbing and Bouldering in Finland
It is currently Wed Oct 23, 2019 08:00

All times are UTC + 2 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 1 post ] 
Author Message
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2001 20:26 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2001 02:00
Posts: 60
-- Posted by Toby on 9:31 am on Aug. 13, 2001

I think it is great that Finland finally has a guidebook but I have noticed a few problems with it.

In the Rollarit section they have printed the directions map twice and missed out one of the topos, this is a shame as it is one of the most visited crags in the country. I also think that it is a shame that some of the crags weren't actually checked rather than just relying on information already available on the internet- for example Tussinkoski in Korso has no grades and the guide says the routes are mainly easy top rope lines, actually most of the routes are trad crack routes and nothing is easier than 5- and most of the higher routes are 6- minimum. Myself and various friends cleaned and led some routes there a few years ago and noted their lead grades, I'll post them here when I find my old topo.

I hope the guide sells well so that they can afford to update it and print new editions, but for people to buy it, it needs to be better than what is available on the net. I hope that in the next edition they include first ascent dates and names so this doesn't disappear into the "mists of time".

So what does everyone else think of the topo's coverage of their favourite crags or boulders?





--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

-- Posted by Jarkko on 10:28 am on Aug. 13, 2001

It is good to have such a book, but there truly are some problems with it. I don´t have one myself, but I have seen it, and boulder grades in it are (often? sometimes?) something totally different from current argeement with local boulderers. This is very clear in Koivusaari, where most of the harder problems have some very ridiculous grades. For example, tekno, which is a quite unpleasant, and hard _eliminate_ by crimp master Pöllänen, is 6+ according to the guide, but in real life tekno is somewhere in the 7th grade. If one climbs the "real" line where tekno is, the grade could be somewhere between 6th and 7th grade, BUT there is no true line there, two real routes being some half meter left and right from tekno. It seems that the authors have not known that the problem is an eliminate, and as far as I know the authors have not asked for help from local boulderers.





--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

-- Posted by Toby on 10:53 am on Aug. 13, 2001

I expect there was some "consultation", the problem (this always happens in the UK) is making enough people aware a guide is being written so they can contribute their opinions. I've been in the UK for the last two yrs plus I don't speak much finnish so thats my excuse! But it is unfortunate because of trad routes up to say 6- I have done an awful lot of them in the Helsinki area and indeed in S. Finland so I have lots opinions. You also need people who climb at all different grades to give opinions, as if you can climb say Finnish 7, you are unlikely to remember the difference between 4+ and 5-! I think also that you need to talk to people who lead routes onsight to get a good idea of grades, for example when I first led Rock Vandal at Rollarit it felt like a good HVS 5a (Finnish 5), and I had to put some effort in, now I have led it maybe 5 times I know where all the gear is and the best holds so it feels like 4+. Grades should be for onsight leads.

Anyway just my opinions.

Jarkko- what is the idea with bouldering grades here anyway? The finnish bouldering grades seem to me to be a totally different system to crag grades. Is this intentional or just historical? Should everyone go over to either Font or Heuco-V grades?





--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

-- Posted by Dave on 1:32 pm on Aug. 13, 2001

I think overall it is good but have the feeling that with just a little bit more work it could have been really good. The topos and maps are beautifully drawn, which must have been an epic effort from Pia for which she deserves our thanks....but in one or two cases that I know about the topos are clearly wrong. Showing the topos and information to more local activists should have been able to resolve many problems like that. I also agree with Toby that it was a shame not to include any information about who did the first ascent and when... it would have been a great opportunity to record the historical development of climbing in Finland. Isn't anybody interested in that? Personally I also like some sort of quality grading system... 1,2 3 star route sort of thing. Again by consulting more widely it would have been fairly easy to come up with that.

I hope those involved listen to the feedback which seems to me to be fairly consistently 'good effort but could be better'.

.... bouldering grades? Why bother ?!

Dave








--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

-- Posted by Toby on 2:05 pm on Aug. 13, 2001

Giving routes stars for quality is a double-edged sword. It might mean on some crags I would have to use my nutkey less for scraping out cracks for nuts - always fun whilst scared! But it can also mean horrible polish on popular crags.

I really hope the guide might lead to a 'renaissance' for some of the less popular crags so they get a bit cleaner, and spread the load of the bloody bachelor-party-goes-abseiling and mass-toprope type groups.





--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

-- Posted by Jarkko on 5:25 pm on Aug. 13, 2001

About bouldering grades:

I think that the difference between bouldering and crag grades is historical, not intentional. It is usually thought that a boulder of grade 6 is equivalent to a route of grade 7, and so on(it´s supposedly linear).

Harder boulders are now usually graded in Font grades, which can be quite misleading I think. Not that many Finns have been to Font, and opinions of the correlation of Font and finnish grades is far from clear. The ones who have been bouldering in the US can be counted with one hands fingers, so the V-scale is even less thinkable. I think that we should keep our own, why change it? Grades are only a hint, it´s not exact science, here or anywhere else.





--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

-- Posted by Samppa on 9:45 pm on Aug. 13, 2001

First of all I'd like to say it's about time that we have a REAL guideBOOK and not that scrappy bunch of xerox copies. The book looks nice and is probably more than enough for an average weekend warriors (if there's such...).

Also especially the coverage on Turku and Tampere bouldering is great altough I don't know are the topos up to date.

But...
I was really surprised to see the first ascent info missing and the year of it. Ok...it's maybe the lack of resources, don't know. Would have been a great possibility to publish some history too.

Also the whole project could have been more open. It was maybe december-january when someone told me there's someone else drawing topos too. Looks like only a small group of people knew(?). If it would have been more open maybe Toby would have been able to correct the Korso -topo. There's whole bunch of people who make routes (well boulders at least) who don't hang with the 80's-90's core climbing posse.

Also the Kivihaka "topo" is err... a weird addition. Besides me I know 2 other persons who have bouldered there and it certainly isn't an important location. It's on Pulteri only because it's quite centrally located. Why such a hurry and no time for asking if something is relevant at all?

Haven't checked it thoroughly but didn't notice a word about Rock Climbing in Finland or Pulteri. On Vaasa pages a text saying something like: for Vaasa information and update see http://www.climbing.fi ....come on :wink:

Also some credits to those who helped would have been nice too.

Ok it's a bit stupid to say these afterwards but for a 2nd edition?

BTW I will buy it and I recommend everyone else buys it too!

My comment was not an attack. Good topic Toby!





--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

-- Posted by jmakinen on 10:25 am on Aug. 14, 2001

Some info on the first ascent and maybe a comment from the person who did the ascent would've been nice but I still can not see either in pulteri or RCiF. Requires some work doesn't it?

I've known about the guide being developed for at least a year so maybe you should leave the cave every once and a while, Samppa.

For not mentioning the two national sites, that is, this one and RCiF...well, that pisses me off. I have noticed no reference for these sites on the SKIL web pages or in the 'Kiipeily'-magazine. This is understandable if these sites are considered as a competition for the guide but nevertheless SKIL is supposed to represent the whole climbing community and not only itself and its products.

But did you ask for the reference? I did and got our local site mentioned in the guide.

Anyroad, topo guides are valuable only after they're filled with pencil marks and additional drawings so keep doodling.

Again, my two euros worth.






--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

-- Posted by Jarkko on 10:32 am on Aug. 14, 2001

Hey Jukka, your thoughts are starting to get quite expensive! A couple of pennies I would undertand, but two euros?

:biggrin:





--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

-- Posted by Samppa on 1:05 pm on Aug. 14, 2001



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


1. Some info on the first ascent and maybe a comment from the person who did the ascent would've been nice but I still can not see either in pulteri or RCiF. Requires some work doesn't it?

2. I've known about the guide being developed for at least a year so maybe you should leave the cave every once and a while, Samppa.

3. But did you ask for the reference? I did and got our local site mentioned in the guide.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



1. Yes. I added some but as I'm almost alone with this job my resources are a bit limited. Most of the history is on grades -page. But it will be one of the things I getting into...but topos are my priority as it has been with SKIL people too, I believe. (but book is always a book so it needs more that aditional stuff in my opinion).

2. Am I that pale...

3. I asked for co-operation especially on the case of Vaasa (other boudlering too).





--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

-- Posted by uddmi1 on 7:48 pm on Aug. 15, 2001

I pretty much agree with all the other comments on this thread.

I heard about the topo project over a year ago but no one I have talked with knew much more than that before the topo was presented.

It is also quite funny if no words about those who have participated in the project can be found and no references to pulteri or RCIF are included??? I´m sure that there is a lot of people hat without the topo would not be what it is. People who have written stories, done drawings, taking photos etc. I beleive that it would encourage people to do such things if they at least are mentioned in the book ...

Maybe one reason for this might be the big chasm between the SKIL climbing bureaucrats and the active climbers. Climbers like those found in "the cave", those discussing on these pages or the authors behind pulteri or RCiF.

-mikael-


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 1 post ] 

All times are UTC + 2 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group