Deprecated: Function set_magic_quotes_runtime() is deprecated in /var/www/customers/klippi/public_html/phpBB3/common.php on line 106
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file /includes/session.php on line 160: htmlspecialchars(): charset `iso8859-10' not supported, assuming utf-8
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file /includes/session.php on line 87: htmlspecialchars(): charset `iso8859-10' not supported, assuming utf-8
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file /includes/session.php on line 129: htmlspecialchars(): charset `iso8859-10' not supported, assuming utf-8
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file /includes/session.php on line 130: htmlspecialchars(): charset `iso8859-10' not supported, assuming utf-8
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file /includes/session.php on line 214: htmlspecialchars(): charset `iso8859-10' not supported, assuming utf-8
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file /includes/session.php on line 916: Cannot modify header information - headers already sent by (output started at /common.php:106)
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file /includes/session.php on line 916: Cannot modify header information - headers already sent by (output started at /common.php:106)
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file /includes/session.php on line 916: Cannot modify header information - headers already sent by (output started at /common.php:106)
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file /includes/session.php on line 1454: htmlspecialchars(): charset `iso8859-10' not supported, assuming utf-8

Deprecated: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is deprecated, use preg_replace_callback instead in /var/www/customers/klippi/public_html/phpBB3/includes/bbcode.php on line 472

Deprecated: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is deprecated, use preg_replace_callback instead in /var/www/customers/klippi/public_html/phpBB3/includes/bbcode.php on line 472

Deprecated: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is deprecated, use preg_replace_callback instead in /var/www/customers/klippi/public_html/phpBB3/includes/bbcode.php on line 472

Deprecated: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is deprecated, use preg_replace_callback instead in /var/www/customers/klippi/public_html/phpBB3/includes/bbcode.php on line 472

Deprecated: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is deprecated, use preg_replace_callback instead in /var/www/customers/klippi/public_html/phpBB3/includes/bbcode.php on line 472

Deprecated: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is deprecated, use preg_replace_callback instead in /var/www/customers/klippi/public_html/phpBB3/includes/bbcode.php on line 472

Deprecated: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is deprecated, use preg_replace_callback instead in /var/www/customers/klippi/public_html/phpBB3/includes/bbcode.php on line 472

Deprecated: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is deprecated, use preg_replace_callback instead in /var/www/customers/klippi/public_html/phpBB3/includes/bbcode.php on line 472

Deprecated: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is deprecated, use preg_replace_callback instead in /var/www/customers/klippi/public_html/phpBB3/includes/bbcode.php on line 472

Deprecated: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is deprecated, use preg_replace_callback instead in /var/www/customers/klippi/public_html/phpBB3/includes/bbcode.php on line 472

Deprecated: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is deprecated, use preg_replace_callback instead in /var/www/customers/klippi/public_html/phpBB3/includes/bbcode.php on line 472

Deprecated: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is deprecated, use preg_replace_callback instead in /var/www/customers/klippi/public_html/phpBB3/includes/bbcode.php on line 472

Deprecated: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is deprecated, use preg_replace_callback instead in /var/www/customers/klippi/public_html/phpBB3/includes/bbcode.php on line 472

Deprecated: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is deprecated, use preg_replace_callback instead in /var/www/customers/klippi/public_html/phpBB3/includes/bbcode.php on line 472

Deprecated: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is deprecated, use preg_replace_callback instead in /var/www/customers/klippi/public_html/phpBB3/includes/bbcode.php on line 472

Deprecated: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is deprecated, use preg_replace_callback instead in /var/www/customers/klippi/public_html/phpBB3/includes/bbcode.php on line 472

Deprecated: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is deprecated, use preg_replace_callback instead in /var/www/customers/klippi/public_html/phpBB3/includes/bbcode.php on line 472

Deprecated: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is deprecated, use preg_replace_callback instead in /var/www/customers/klippi/public_html/phpBB3/includes/bbcode.php on line 472

Deprecated: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is deprecated, use preg_replace_callback instead in /var/www/customers/klippi/public_html/phpBB3/includes/bbcode.php on line 472

Deprecated: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is deprecated, use preg_replace_callback instead in /var/www/customers/klippi/public_html/phpBB3/includes/bbcode.php on line 472

Deprecated: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is deprecated, use preg_replace_callback instead in /var/www/customers/klippi/public_html/phpBB3/includes/bbcode.php on line 472

Deprecated: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is deprecated, use preg_replace_callback instead in /var/www/customers/klippi/public_html/phpBB3/includes/bbcode.php on line 472

Deprecated: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is deprecated, use preg_replace_callback instead in /var/www/customers/klippi/public_html/phpBB3/includes/bbcode.php on line 472

Deprecated: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is deprecated, use preg_replace_callback instead in /var/www/customers/klippi/public_html/phpBB3/includes/bbcode.php on line 472

Deprecated: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is deprecated, use preg_replace_callback instead in /var/www/customers/klippi/public_html/phpBB3/includes/bbcode.php on line 472

Deprecated: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is deprecated, use preg_replace_callback instead in /var/www/customers/klippi/public_html/phpBB3/includes/bbcode.php on line 472

Deprecated: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is deprecated, use preg_replace_callback instead in /var/www/customers/klippi/public_html/phpBB3/includes/bbcode.php on line 112

Deprecated: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is deprecated, use preg_replace_callback instead in /var/www/customers/klippi/public_html/phpBB3/includes/bbcode.php on line 112

Deprecated: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is deprecated, use preg_replace_callback instead in /var/www/customers/klippi/public_html/phpBB3/includes/bbcode.php on line 112
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file /includes/functions.php on line 3529: Cannot modify header information - headers already sent by (output started at /common.php:106)
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file /includes/functions.php on line 3531: Cannot modify header information - headers already sent by (output started at /common.php:106)
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file /includes/functions.php on line 3532: Cannot modify header information - headers already sent by (output started at /common.php:106)
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file /includes/functions.php on line 3533: Cannot modify header information - headers already sent by (output started at /common.php:106)
Slouppi • View topic - More Haukkakallio

Slouppi

Rock climbing and Bouldering in Finland
It is currently Wed Sep 19, 2018 03:10

All times are UTC + 2 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 9 posts ] 
Author Message
 Post subject: More Haukkakallio
PostPosted: Fri Jul 28, 2006 08:55 
Offline

Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2002 02:00
Posts: 216
Location: Vantaa
I visited Haukkakallio for the first time in a few weeks last night. I am quite upset :cry: (see I'm crying!) to see that a route that I believe that myself and Carl Eklund did the first ascent of, has been retrobolted. The day myself and Calle climbed the route, we saw the Släbi people at the cliff and chatted with them. It was actually Markus from Släbi who told us that we had done the first ascent. We had misunderstood and believed the route had already been climbed. I wrote a description of the route on the Haukkakallio blog http://haukkakallio.blogspot.com/2006/0 ... ector.html which I have 'advertised' here, and also sent the URL to the Släbi club.

I don't really understand how or why this was done. The Släbi topo http://www.slabi.net/Kanjoni-sektori.pdf marks the route and says it was climbed by Markus in July (7/06), despite he saw us climb it in June? :-? I thought at first that maybe the route had been climbed previously and whoever did that ascent agreed with retrobolting it. But then why would Markus put his name on the topo as the first ascentionist?

Having met the Släbi people on a number occasion they seemed like very friendly and enthusiastic climbers - so I really don't want to think the worst - but at the moment it appears that they watched me and Calle climb the route and then at some later point came back, retro-bolted the route and claimed it as their own?! This just seems so unlikely!?

I know ultimately that no one owns the rock, etc. etc. but I've never heard in well over a decade in un-negotiated retro-bolting and renaming of route?!? :o

Unless someone can give me a good explanation to why I have misunderstood the situation, would I not be justified in removing the bolts in the way those bolts were chopped at Olhava a few years back?


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jul 28, 2006 09:34 
Offline

Joined: Fri Jun 11, 2004 19:32
Posts: 27
Location: espoo
Toby,
I was worried when I read your post in the previous Haukkakallio threat. Now that you told the details I’m really concerned.

Bolting crack lines is a thing that I do not accept. Retro bolting existing routes is even worse. It should not be accepted.

I appreciate the work that people are doing when opening new routes on new cracks. However, it seems that now the climbing has taken a step backwards in Haukkakallio. I still don’t understand this very questionable bolting. If there exist a natural line or more, if there exists a route (a line that has been climbed), why is it bolted? Is it because the climber, that decides to bolt it, thinks it’s too hard or serious for him?

It is a bad excuse to claim that this line was bolted in order to create easy sport climbing route for beginners. 5c-6a is not easy climbing, in fact in some cliffs routes on these grades are pretty serious.

I just hope that this retro bolting was not done intentionally. Bottom line: I do not think it’s your job to chop the bolts down. The guy who bolted the route should admit his mistake and fix it.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jul 28, 2006 10:06 
Offline

Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2002 02:00
Posts: 216
Location: Vantaa
I should add I emailed Markus directly some days ago to ask for clarification on the situation and haven't heard back yet. I wanted to do this before starting a public discussion on it, but of course at this time of year he is quite likely on holiday.

I should also note that tape markers have been placed to show where the bolts should go on the project - line 2 on this topo: http://www.slabi.net/Kultajuova-sektori.pdf and if they are placed where the duct tape is they will be easily clippable from the crux of Tuomo's route Kesäalkaa (line 3) which we climbed last night. I know the position of bolts is carefully considered so you can actually clip them from a decent hold, but if a way could be found to put the bolts even 50 cms further left it wouldn't be, in effect, retroing the crux of Kesäalkaa - a pre-existing line.

As I said I am upset but I don't want to start storming around and yelling etc. because as I said above, it could be that someone had previously done this line before Calle and me. I can accept that this is something of a 'clash of cultures' - that some people see cliffs as a sporting facility like a swimming pool or a skate ramp, whilst I at least tend to see them more as "nature", like a forest you hike through or a lake you kayak across. This maybe makes it difficult to find a compromise. I know the Släbi guys have done a lot of climbing on bolted Spanish limestone where routes normally finish at a lower off - not at the top of a cliff etc. and they want something similar more locally. But I guess I feel that the rock should dictate - I would like 1500 mtr-high mountains and 400 mtr long icefalls locally, but there just aren't any here and I have to accept that! Bolting a crack line which goes at 5c, doesn't turn it into a wonderful pocket-covered Fr 5c limestone slab. Its just a Fin. 5+ granite crack with a line of unnecessary bolts next to it. And that to me is sad.

I've seen the parts of the UK climbing community rip itself apart over bolts and it gets ugly. I hope that doesn't happen here, but the bolters always have an advantage - they do something: drill a hole a glue a bolt in, whilst the trad climbers do nothing, they climb a route and hope no one comes and bolts it afterwards... People who don't favour bolts are always forced into what seems like a negative, responsive act - chopping. I've got no problem with sports routes where bolts are the only way of protecting the climb - and there is so much rock at Haukkakallio surely there can be great sports routes that aren't easy to protect cracks?

I've got a friend living in Beirut and I'm sure she would laugh (or cry) about how much climbers can argue over something that might seem so ridiculous with bomb-loaded F16s flying overhead! :-?


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: More Haukkakallio
PostPosted: Fri Jul 28, 2006 12:38 
Offline

Joined: Wed May 24, 2006 12:53
Posts: 5
[quote="Toby"]I visited Haukkakallio for the first time in a few weeks last night. I am quite upset :cry: (see I'm crying!) to see that a route that I believe that myself and Carl Eklund did the first ascent of, has been retrobolted.

Toby, the line you are refering to ( Moonbridge at Kanjoni) is originlly a line from Kimpi from last summer. He has released it to me. Sorry if I have not received your mail where I could have told this, but pls note for future the rules of Släbi: You have to get a permission = our reply from Släbi to the planed route BEFORE you start to clean or even climb it. The same goes for the line you climbed with Kalle in the corner between Terassi and Muuri -sectors, this is a line from me what I started to do in last summer. During your visit at Haukkakallio I "released" the corner in Kanjoni where the top ankor is installed , but no other lines. Currently there are several lines "under Project" and the record can only be kept and controlled in one place. Hope for your understanding and respect the work you have done to do nice lines at the Kivikausi -sector.


Markus


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jul 28, 2006 12:42 
Offline

Joined: Fri May 10, 2002 02:00
Posts: 1001
Location: Imatra
Markus,

So there is a deal with the land owner that only Släbi-people can clean routes or give permission to do so?


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jul 28, 2006 12:53 
Offline

Joined: Thu Dec 27, 2001 02:00
Posts: 264
markus, that doesn't make much sense. if climbing is allowed on a cliff anyone should be allowed to put up a route without a separate permission. possibly you could ask people not to try your project until you've done it but if your attitude is like it seems to be, i wouldn't expect too much.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jul 28, 2006 13:03 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2001 02:00
Posts: 333
Location: nybacka - uusmäki
olli, in the end it's probably up to the landowner to decide. don't you think?

(in case of cleaning i mean. climbing something clean does not affect anyone but climbers)


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jul 28, 2006 13:18 
Offline

Joined: Tue Oct 15, 2002 02:00
Posts: 75
I understand Slabi's position with reserving projects, lines can take a while to clean and those that negoitated access and gardened the surrounding area should have rights to certain lines/projects. Slabi should be thanked for releasing details of the crag before it was fully developed, and thus allowed to keep their projects. Although, in practice it hasnt worked so well because nobody seems to know which lines are reserved and by who (I did try to contact Kimppi about lines but got no reply). It might be better to place a physical movable marker on or under the climb stating (i.e. a pole with a note, some cleaning equipment, or a note stuffed in a crack) if a line is under development.

Yesterday I did Kotkanruusu and its a very nice line, especially the top half. This line is not immediately protectable and suits bolts (although 3 bolts in the first 4 metres is maybe a bit excessive). However, from that line one can look across and see the top half of (Moonbridge/Auf Wiedersehen Ecuador) and see a perfectly protectable crack with 2-3 (cannot remember the exact number) bolts next to it.

Dear Markus,

I will make it my mission to find and develop easier sports lines whenever I go to Haukkakallio next ( I have one in mind already), if you agree to bolt them. But please stop bolting crack climbs.

Cheers,

Jody


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jul 28, 2006 13:57 
Offline

Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2002 02:00
Posts: 216
Location: Vantaa
Markus,

When I met Kimpi on the cleaning day I misunderstood what he had said and thought he said that he had climbed the line, which is why Carl and I decided to try it in June. So I didn't realise it was a "closed project" and when I spoke with either you, or maybe it was Jake, the day we did the route I was told - "Kimpi won't mind because he has hurt his arm and isn't climbing this year". In which case I apologize to Kimpi for accidently climbing the route that he had cleaned. I don't care about the name of the route or whose name goes on the topo for the FA, but I am troubled that a route that has been led onsight on natural gear has been subsequently bolted.

The idea of control of a crag I'm uncomfortable with, beyond the respect that almost all climbers would give to lines that someone has cleaned (and with sports routes, equipped) and are actively trying but haven't done yet. For example the offwidth-corner you mentioned, that why we weren't trying to lead it. I respect the effort that Släbi has put into negotiating with the landowner, but would observe that people have climbed at Haukkakallio before there was this arrangement, and indeed we "found" the cliff independently - before we read about the Släbi cleaning day here on Slouppi - as have clearly other teams of climbers. In other words routes had been done before the deal, and would have been done without them. Many cliffs have no formal access arrangement, people just have climbed there historically and the rules or ethics applied have been those of the climbing community in general, rather than of one person or club who have some sort of 'control' over the cliff: this is a new precedent to set and one that I'm not sure how many can accept.

As for the "one controlled place for all the information" - this makes sense, but that is why I made sure Släbi was aware of the site I had set up - by emailing the address to Leena - as well as putting the link here on Slouppi for all other interested climbers to see.

I email both you and Leena through the addresses on the Släbi website. Are there some technical difficulties?

Toby.


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 9 posts ] 

All times are UTC + 2 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group