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Slouppi • View topic - Kvarnby

Slouppi

Rock climbing and Bouldering in Finland
It is currently Thu Sep 20, 2018 12:40

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun May 26, 2002 14:41 
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Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2002 02:00
Posts: 216
Location: Vantaa
Does anyone know who retro-bolted 'Heros in Heaven' at Kvarnby and why? I presume it was the same people who added the lower offs to the top as well?

I've been regularly climbing at Kvarnby for five years, I have led Heros in Heaven many times and have watched lots of my friends also lead it, so it wasn't as if it wasn't popular before. I just can't see the point of retro-bolting it. What was wrong with the way it was before? The old bolt has had its ring hacked off, but the bolt has been left just making more of a mess of the slab.

Secondly - why on earth bother with the time, effort and expense of putting in a lower-off about 50cms from three(!) trees, all of which make perfect top anchors using just a 120cm sling?

I'm not anti sport-climbing and I'm not anti-bolts, but I do think routes shouldn't be retro-bolted, and I think anyone who can't set up a top anchor on the 90% of Finnish crags where there is a forest of trees to choose from should go and read a book on how to go climbing. The lower-offs are ugly and unnecessary - if you want to climb on a climbing wall, go to a climbing wall. And if people can't accept that there is a certain amount of skill needed and risk involved in going climbing they should stay at home and play computer games.

Finally we picked up about 15 cigarette butts, bits of finger tape, band-aids and other bits of litter from the bottom of the crag. Even if you want bolts in the rock, at least take your trash home.


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PostPosted: Sun May 26, 2002 22:18 
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Joined: Fri Dec 21, 2001 02:00
Posts: 129
Location: Porvoo
I suppose the route has been retrobolted, because the old "onebolt" solution was idiotic. Top anchors or whatever are usually added to save the tree roots on the cliffs...

Yes, the route is by all standards easy, but that does not justify stupid bolting, because some people who leads this 5+ might be beginners or have very little experience from leading. The route is also not such a classic that the original bolting should have been left untouched.

So I can understand the reasons for the retrobolting, although I´m not so sure that it was necessary in this case ...


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PostPosted: Mon May 27, 2002 07:34 
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Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2002 02:00
Posts: 216
Location: Vantaa
I can definitely see your point of view, but in that case perhaps the old bolt should have just been removed and the route left clean?

Does the 'bad bolting' argument mean that all the hard routes at Nuuksio should be retroed? Or even say a route like 'Kantti' at Olhava? - That route is at the very limit of my lead grade at the moment, so I won't lead it because even with the bolts the run-outs are big enough to freak me out BUT that doesn't mean that I think it should have more bolts placed, in fact rather the opposite, I think it is a shame it has any bolts at all.

That is the problem with minimalist bolting, or bolting blank areas where no trad gear can go. Who decides what 'minimalist' or 'blank' is?

As to the top-anchors, the trees at the top of that slab show absolutely no damage to them at all, even from people abseiling and then pulling their ropes down. They are large trees and their root systems won't be threatened. Besides anything else, trees at the top of Finnish cliffs have maybe six months 'holiday' each year when there won't be any climbers at all, and Kvarnby isn't that popular, there are rarely other teams there when I go.

BTW I think 'Heros in Heaven' is a good route at the grade. If it was a E1 5a gritstone slab somewhere near Sheffield it would probably get three stars and hundreds of ascents a year even with out any gear at all!

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Toby on 2002-05-27 08:39 ]</font>


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PostPosted: Mon May 27, 2002 08:49 
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Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2001 02:00
Posts: 333
Location: nybacka - uusmäki
Just curious... did someone just replace one bolt or did they add more of them also?

The logic behind top-anchors could be to limit all the unnecessary traffic on top of cliff. No top-outs > no paths or other kinds of erosion on top.


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PostPosted: Mon May 27, 2002 09:05 
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Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2002 02:00
Posts: 216
Location: Vantaa
The route originally had one ringbolt at about 3/4 height. There are now two bolts below the old one and one above it, the new bolts are seperated by maybe 1.5 metres, the highest one is about half a metre below a crack that takes a small friend. The old bolt has had it ring hacked off so it is unusable but it has not been removed meaning that there are four bolts now clearly visible on the slab.

At the top of the slab there is a new twin-bolt chain and fixed-krab lower-off. Another twin bolt lower off has also been placed at the top of Murkkuhalkeama. I think also that 'Back to Fitzroy' on the bigger part of the cliff has been retro-bolted, but I didn't go to the top to see if lower-offs have been placed there.


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PostPosted: Mon May 27, 2002 09:11 
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Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2002 02:00
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Location: Helsinki, Jyväskylä
I don't see the bad bolting argument. The single bolt was well placed. My preference on this route goes to no bolts at all.

Top achors, although ugly, do not change the nature of the route. I'm not that green to worry about the effect of ropes on the trees on top of this particular route but the anchor does make life a whole lot easier.

Henkka rebolted the route so the question is not about the desire to overbolt but rather to please the beginners. It isn't a classic.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: jmakinen on 2002-05-27 10:21 ]</font>


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PostPosted: Mon May 27, 2002 09:43 
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Location: Vantaa
Quote:
On 2002-05-27 10:11, jmakinen wrote:
I don't see the bad bolting argument. The single bolt was well placed. My preference on this route goes to no bolts at all.

Henkka rebolted the route so the question is not about the desire to overbolt but rather to please the beginners. It isn't a classic.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: jmakinen on 2002-05-27 10:21 ]</font>


I agree that no bolts would be best, but I guess there is no going back.

Who decides on what is a classic? When I first led it I remember being really pleased, if you lead to around that grade as I do, the couple of moves up to the old bolt where quite committing and as a result the route will 'stay with you'. The route is quite unique in the Helsinki area, I can't think of any other balancy slab routes like that.

I don't really get the 'beginner' argument. First of all most beginners only seem to top rope anyway, and also shouldn't there be some 'head' routes for all grades? If anyone (beginner or crappy vetran like me) doesn't want to take the risk why can't they just top-rope it?

I know the route is hardly a world classic, but in its old state it was one of those climbs that was a 'little adventure', something to exercise your heart and mind rather than just your muscles. That's what makes climbing the best sport in the world. If there is no adventure its just like going to a gym in pretty surroundings.


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PostPosted: Mon May 27, 2002 12:02 
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Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2002 02:00
Posts: 34
Location: Helsinki, Jyväskylä
"Who decides on what is a classic?"

Touché. On this note, I repeat my position, the route was better before.

"I don't really get the 'beginner' argument."

As J. Saatsi well knows I was scared shitless on top rope a few years back but well, he kept on giving me slack. Whine & whimper equals two meters more slack - method does not work by the way, time did. Time, nevertheless, seems to be something a few beginners lack of.

The well known symptom of the gym-complex, also known as I-know-better-because-I've-been-indoor-climbing-for-two-months-already -complex is the desire to make leading outdoors as easy as top roping indoors. An easy short-cut to an increasing tick-list.

This drill-work might be the easiest compromise as opposed to rebolting Kantti. Give some, take some. In the meanwhile, time goes by and we get a few ex-beginners demanding those bolts to be removed for the sake of climbing history and route quality.

Maybe not but we might have just bought a few years of quality time by selling one route cheap.

Where's my 7c with a screamer run-out?

jmäkinen


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PostPosted: Tue May 28, 2002 09:37 
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Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2002 02:00
Posts: 216
Location: Vantaa
Does no one else have an opinion on this? Surely people must think it is a good or a bad thing? It seems a funny thing for climbers to be indifferent to.

Is the acceptance of the status quo, no matter who sets it, a symptom of social democratic political culture as opposed to strong-if at times pointless- debate of liberal democracies?

The last bit was a joke by the way...


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PostPosted: Tue May 28, 2002 10:07 
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Joined: Fri Dec 21, 2001 02:00
Posts: 129
Location: Porvoo
I don't think we get rid of the dickheads´ questions, e.g. Why is "kantti" so sparsely bolted?, by retrobolting some other routes. There will always be those punters who cannot accept the fact that climbing is not always a 100% riskfree activity and that it requires a lot of time & effort to lead some of the classic routes in Finland.

I also agree that it might have been better to remove/keep that one bolt at Kvarnby, instead of putting two more (but the top anchor was a good idea). Everyone afraid of run-outs can go to Rollarit and lead the "super-magnificent" (not), slightly overbolted, easy, 5 meter routes ...

But I do not see the point in discussing this topic more here, we all pretty much know the rules anyway, or?


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PostPosted: Tue May 28, 2002 10:35 
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Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2002 02:00
Posts: 216
Location: Vantaa
The reason I'm interested is that despite climbing in Finland for over five years and having loads of climbing mates, I still don't understand it there is a consensus of some sort of policy on what to bolt and what not to. Originally I thought it was just because my Finnish is too crappy to read the SKIL website etc, but none of my Finnish mates seem to know why somethings are bolted and some not. Who decides and who is consulted?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue May 28, 2002 19:00 
The policy varies but:

If there is a good natural placement available there is usually no bolt. And if there is a runout between two natural placements there is usually a bolt between them. The answer for what is a runout or a good placement depends on the person who makes the route but it is usually smart to ask the local climbing club representatives if you are not sure. And then there are, of course, some persons who make trad-routes (not much anymore) and few compeletely bolted crags to have an exception.

Henkka is the contact person for Olhava but other than that there are jungle laws. :smile:


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PostPosted: Tue May 28, 2002 21:33 
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Joined: Fri Dec 28, 2001 02:00
Posts: 56
Location: Kulosaari, Helsinki
I must say I'm sad to hear that this kind of retrobolting takes place. Last summer I visited Kvarnby on several occasions before I conjured enough courage(?) to make the lead (the funky look of the old bolt didn't exactly help my confidence). Anyway I felt I had accomplished something when I successfully managed to lead it. Now the route is relegated to beeing an easy beginner lead. I feel that the route has really been robbed of its character.

Again I understand that retrobolting is not a black and white issue. At Jaanankallio there is the route Kakimassaa which I guess is established soloing. As fumbling on this would result in a really nasty fall I might not be adamantly against adding a bolt or two. I wonder how many repeats the route has seen...


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PostPosted: Thu May 30, 2002 11:53 
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Joined: Thu Jan 17, 2002 02:00
Posts: 132
Location: Helsinki
I have thought in Finland we have a rule, which says that climber who makes the first ascent is the one to say how the route should be bolted - usually with consulting the local climbers. No retro bolting is allowed without consulting the FA climber. I believe this is clear rule to follow in every case, being a route a classic or not. (Again: who is the one to give route a classic label anyway).

Then I read the rules of making a new route from SKIL's homepage:

http://www.climbing.fi/topo/doku/reietik.html

For my surprise, there is nothing about retro bolting a route.

I think that being a retro bolting so important matter, it should be mentioned in "official" rules too!


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu May 30, 2002 13:37 
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Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2001 02:00
Posts: 208
Location: Metsola, Kotka
Bolting in Kvarnby has been accepted and arranged by SKIL. All changes in boltings has been approved by the first ascensionists EXCEPT in the case of 'Heroes in Heaven'. This line has been established years ago by Sven Holt (sorry if misspelled) who nowdays lives somwhere in Germany. It was therefore impossible to ask his opinion about the bolting. The one bolt in 'Majavan paluu' was removed by permission of the first ascensionist Kari Poti.

I talked with Henkka yesterday and he admits that the route would have been just ok with only one bolt. There is however a constant need for easier bolted routes, so it was decided to add another bolt when the first bolt was replaced and top anchor installed. The idea was pretty much the same Jmakinen mentioned: "Henkka rebolted the route so the question is not about the desire to overbolt but rather to please the beginners. It isn't a classic."


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