Deprecated: Function set_magic_quotes_runtime() is deprecated in /var/www/customers/klippi/public_html/phpBB3/common.php on line 106
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file /includes/session.php on line 160: htmlspecialchars(): charset `iso8859-10' not supported, assuming utf-8
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file /includes/session.php on line 87: htmlspecialchars(): charset `iso8859-10' not supported, assuming utf-8
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file /includes/session.php on line 129: htmlspecialchars(): charset `iso8859-10' not supported, assuming utf-8
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file /includes/session.php on line 130: htmlspecialchars(): charset `iso8859-10' not supported, assuming utf-8
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file /includes/session.php on line 214: htmlspecialchars(): charset `iso8859-10' not supported, assuming utf-8
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file /includes/session.php on line 916: Cannot modify header information - headers already sent by (output started at /common.php:106)
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file /includes/session.php on line 916: Cannot modify header information - headers already sent by (output started at /common.php:106)
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file /includes/session.php on line 916: Cannot modify header information - headers already sent by (output started at /common.php:106)
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file /includes/session.php on line 1454: htmlspecialchars(): charset `iso8859-10' not supported, assuming utf-8

Deprecated: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is deprecated, use preg_replace_callback instead in /var/www/customers/klippi/public_html/phpBB3/includes/bbcode.php on line 472

Deprecated: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is deprecated, use preg_replace_callback instead in /var/www/customers/klippi/public_html/phpBB3/includes/bbcode.php on line 472

Deprecated: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is deprecated, use preg_replace_callback instead in /var/www/customers/klippi/public_html/phpBB3/includes/bbcode.php on line 472

Deprecated: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is deprecated, use preg_replace_callback instead in /var/www/customers/klippi/public_html/phpBB3/includes/bbcode.php on line 472

Deprecated: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is deprecated, use preg_replace_callback instead in /var/www/customers/klippi/public_html/phpBB3/includes/bbcode.php on line 472

Deprecated: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is deprecated, use preg_replace_callback instead in /var/www/customers/klippi/public_html/phpBB3/includes/bbcode.php on line 472

Deprecated: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is deprecated, use preg_replace_callback instead in /var/www/customers/klippi/public_html/phpBB3/includes/bbcode.php on line 472

Deprecated: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is deprecated, use preg_replace_callback instead in /var/www/customers/klippi/public_html/phpBB3/includes/bbcode.php on line 472

Deprecated: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is deprecated, use preg_replace_callback instead in /var/www/customers/klippi/public_html/phpBB3/includes/bbcode.php on line 472

Deprecated: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is deprecated, use preg_replace_callback instead in /var/www/customers/klippi/public_html/phpBB3/includes/bbcode.php on line 472

Deprecated: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is deprecated, use preg_replace_callback instead in /var/www/customers/klippi/public_html/phpBB3/includes/bbcode.php on line 472

Deprecated: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is deprecated, use preg_replace_callback instead in /var/www/customers/klippi/public_html/phpBB3/includes/bbcode.php on line 472

Deprecated: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is deprecated, use preg_replace_callback instead in /var/www/customers/klippi/public_html/phpBB3/includes/bbcode.php on line 472

Deprecated: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is deprecated, use preg_replace_callback instead in /var/www/customers/klippi/public_html/phpBB3/includes/bbcode.php on line 472

Deprecated: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is deprecated, use preg_replace_callback instead in /var/www/customers/klippi/public_html/phpBB3/includes/bbcode.php on line 472

Deprecated: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is deprecated, use preg_replace_callback instead in /var/www/customers/klippi/public_html/phpBB3/includes/bbcode.php on line 472

Deprecated: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is deprecated, use preg_replace_callback instead in /var/www/customers/klippi/public_html/phpBB3/includes/bbcode.php on line 472

Deprecated: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is deprecated, use preg_replace_callback instead in /var/www/customers/klippi/public_html/phpBB3/includes/bbcode.php on line 472

Deprecated: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is deprecated, use preg_replace_callback instead in /var/www/customers/klippi/public_html/phpBB3/includes/bbcode.php on line 472

Deprecated: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is deprecated, use preg_replace_callback instead in /var/www/customers/klippi/public_html/phpBB3/includes/bbcode.php on line 472

Deprecated: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is deprecated, use preg_replace_callback instead in /var/www/customers/klippi/public_html/phpBB3/includes/bbcode.php on line 472

Deprecated: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is deprecated, use preg_replace_callback instead in /var/www/customers/klippi/public_html/phpBB3/includes/bbcode.php on line 472

Deprecated: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is deprecated, use preg_replace_callback instead in /var/www/customers/klippi/public_html/phpBB3/includes/bbcode.php on line 472

Deprecated: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is deprecated, use preg_replace_callback instead in /var/www/customers/klippi/public_html/phpBB3/includes/bbcode.php on line 472

Deprecated: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is deprecated, use preg_replace_callback instead in /var/www/customers/klippi/public_html/phpBB3/includes/bbcode.php on line 472

Deprecated: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is deprecated, use preg_replace_callback instead in /var/www/customers/klippi/public_html/phpBB3/includes/bbcode.php on line 472

Deprecated: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is deprecated, use preg_replace_callback instead in /var/www/customers/klippi/public_html/phpBB3/includes/bbcode.php on line 112
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file /includes/functions.php on line 3529: Cannot modify header information - headers already sent by (output started at /common.php:106)
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file /includes/functions.php on line 3531: Cannot modify header information - headers already sent by (output started at /common.php:106)
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file /includes/functions.php on line 3532: Cannot modify header information - headers already sent by (output started at /common.php:106)
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file /includes/functions.php on line 3533: Cannot modify header information - headers already sent by (output started at /common.php:106)
Slouppi • View topic - Karabiinien ja köysien käsittelystä

Slouppi

Rock climbing and Bouldering in Finland
It is currently Tue Sep 25, 2018 16:37

All times are UTC + 2 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 23 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue May 20, 2003 14:36 
Kannattaa varmaan tsekata UIAA-journaleita aina silloin tällöin.

"During my work for the DAV (German Alpine Club), during 32 years, I investigated many old ropes from time to time, when I received them from climbers and mountaineers, who wanted to know whether their rope was still good. Some of these ropes were 15, 20, 25 and even 30 years old. They were tested by a UIAA-approved test laboratory. The result: All ropes hold minimum one fall on the Dodero-test-machine, most of them more than one fall; and no rope broke in the knot, always at the orifice.

Because the fall on the Dodero-test-machine is much stronger than in practice (in practice no rigid falling mass, no strictly static belay), it is not possible for a rope which holds one fall on the Dodero-test-machine to break in practice - not in the knot, not in the running belay, not at the belaying device, only when the rope is loaded over a sharp edge, normally a rock edge. And this happens as the table shows very, very seldom" (Pit Schubert 1/2003)


"So the advice must be not to attach to the rope by a karabiner, or, if the use of karabiners is essential, as maybe while top-roping or on glaciers, the following text makes proposals on how to minimise the chance of such breaking of karabiners." (Pit Schubert 3/2000)

Kyösiartikkeli uusimmassa (1/2003):
http://journal.uiaa.ch/art.asp?id=245

Karabiineista, slingeistä ja vähän kaikesta muusta:
http://journal.uiaa.ch/download/20003.pdf (2,8mb)


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Sampsa J. on 2003-06-17 10:41 ]</font>


Top
  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue May 20, 2003 14:59 
Toinen hyvä tapa on lukea oikeita lehtiä (en ole tosin saanut alkuperäistä käsiini):

We are indebted to Tony Rooney for the following information culled from the pages of Climber magazine (Feb '98). In a report on dynamic climbing ropes Pitt Schubert, President of the UIAA safety commission found the following....

1. Ropes cannot break in the tie in knot, or at the running belay.

2. Use of twin ropes has cut down on breakages.

3. There have been no known rope failures in sport climbing

4. Petrol, Diesel, WD40, Coke and sea water do not damage ropes.

5. Autan (insect repellent), although damaging to plastic, was not found to damage ropes...in fact strength was slightly increased.

6. UV radiation does not damage ropes. Nylon is UV stabilised and only the colour will be lost.

7. Standing on a rope loaded over a right-angled metal edge with three times body weight did not reduce a ropes strength.

8. Standing on a rope in the snow with crampons did no damage. Neither did standing on it on rock with a 75kg body weight. In a further test crampon points were forced right through the rope with no strength reduction/damage occurring!

9. The suggested life span of 10 years which has been given for ropes is to help the user determine life span . However, after contact with ICI it was found that although after 10 years there was a measurable degradation in nylon (not just in ropes, but all nylon textiles) ageing itself would not cause a rope to break, unless it was loaded over a sharp edge.

10. Top roping damaged ropes, but the damage was visible and could be felt. The same applied to damage from stonefall.

However, lest we become complacent...

1. Any rope can break when loaded over a sharp edge. It is not possible to produce a rope that is strong enough not to break when loaded over a sharp edge, however, the maximum chance for survival is with a new rope.

2. Car battery acid damages ropes and cannot be visibly detected.

3. Ropes soaked overnight in urine (!) had their strength reduced by 30%. However, this was only relevant when the rope was loaded over a sharp edge.

4. The strength of frozen and wet ropes was reduced but again, unless the rope is loaded over a sharp edge, it would not matter."

(http://www.mountaineering.ie/news/Pre20 ... 5climb.htm)



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Sampsa J. on 2003-06-18 09:31 ]</font>


Top
  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue May 20, 2003 15:01 
Kolmas etsiä hyvät lähteet Internetistä:

Re: Rope Question "with some new data"
Author: Chris Harmston
Email: chrish@bdel.com
Date: 1998/03/17
Forums: rec.climbing

Here is an interesting summary of one rope that was very heavily used,
abused, retired, and then tested. Don't take this information to mean
that you should not retire your ropes after severe falls or heavy abuse.

BD gave a 10 mm rope to Merill Bitter. Merill climbs more than anyone I
know. You could say that he is anal about keeping records of his
climbing. Merill is one of the best climbers in Utah and has redpointed
5.14 and has put up numerous 5.12 trad routes in the area. The following
data is from his climbing log. This rope was manufactured in 1996.
Merill weighs about 125 lbs (my guess).

rope used during 71 days of hard sport climhbing-
628 Falls (2 to 25 feet)
625 Lead Climbs
198 Top Ropes
1242 Hangs or "takes"
636 lowers from anchors
2 double line rappels
1 Jumar pitch

2 sections of rope were cut off (15 feet from each end) due to core shots
suffered from the above abuse."

I took Merill's rope and had it tested according to the UIAA/CEN rope
standards. Two tests were done. One from the end of the rope and one
from the middle of the rope.
I thank BEAL Cordes for this testing.

The UIAA test is a 1.78 fall factor with 178 lbs. This is an extremely
hard fall with static belay!

Sample 1 (end of the rope).
Number of falls to cause failure: 1
Impact Force 7.45 kN (1674 lbf)

Sample 2 (middle of the rope).
Number of falls to cause failure: 3
Impact Force on 1st drop 7.41 kN
Impact Force on 2nd drop 9.20 kN
Impact Force on 3rd drop 10.45 kN.

This demonstrates that the impact force increases rapidly with repeated
falls. It also shows that this rope performed very well considering the
amount of use it has seen. I certainly don't recommend that anyone use a
rope to this extreme.
When new these ropes would hold between 7 and 10
falls and the impact forces on the first drop were in the 6.5 kN range.
It is amazing that the impact forces on this rope are as low as they are.
Note, BD ropes have some of the lowest impact forces on the market (our
ropes are manufactured by Beal and PMI) so don't assume that your rope
will perform the same as this one has. Lower impact force ropes equate to
lower forces on the gear which increases the probability that the gear
will hold the fall. Note, the impact force is that felt by the "climber"
or the tension in the rope. The protection would have felt about 1.6
times the force stated. For the third fall above the protection would
have felt about 3700 pounds of force (greater than 16 kN) which is more
than enough to break stoppers, Camalot Jr's, carabiners in open or closed
gate, etc. In real life the forces will be significantly lower due to
energy absorbtion due to belay device slippage (friction), two bodys
involved instead of steel and a static belay. FWIW.

Chris Harmston (chrish@bdel.com).
Quality Assurance Manager. Materials Engineer BS, ME.
Black Diamond Equipment Ltd.
2084 East 3900 South, SLC, UT 84124 phone: 801-278-5552

http://www.fishproducts.com/tech/rope.html


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Sampsa J. on 2003-06-18 09:49 ]</font>


Top
  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue May 20, 2003 15:19 
Lopuksi mennään vielä hieman huhujen puolelle, mutta olen varmistanut asiaa muutamalta materitekniikan insinööriltä ja ovat samaa mieltä, joten kaipa tämäkin on totta. Ehkä kaikki pudotetut kasit eivät olekaan hylkytavaraa. Uskokoon ken haluaa. :smile:

>As far as "micro cracking" and "hidden flaws in dropped gear", as far as I
>know its a myth. Official company line is "use your own judgement", and I
>can't really tell you that the biner you dropped off ElCap is fine. But I can
>tell you that those ones Todd and Paul dropped off the Salathe broke at full
>strength. We generally use ductile materials that don't "micro-crack", rather
>than high tech ceramics that might have this problem.

Only the ones that were not visually damaged were full strength. Those
that were visually damaged broke lower.

Chris Harmston (chrish@bdel.com).
Quality Assurance Manager. Materials Engineer BS, ME.
Black Diamond Equipment Ltd.
2084 East 3900 South, SLC, UT 84124 phone: 801-278-5552

DISCLAIMER: Unless otherwise indicated, this correspondence is personal
opinion and NOT an official statement of Black Diamond Equipment Ltd.

http://www.fishproducts.com/tech/techweenie.html


Last edited by Sampsa J. on Tue Mar 01, 2005 11:13, edited 1 time in total.

Top
  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue May 20, 2003 15:20 
Onko kenelläkään ristiriitaista tietoa edellisistä? Pitääkö kaivaa vanhat hylkyköydet kaapista takaisin käyttöön, jos mantteli on ok? :smile:


Top
  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue May 27, 2003 13:04 
Quote:
8. Standing on a rope in the snow with crampons did no damage. Neither did standing on it on rock with a 75kg body weight. In a further test crampon points were forced right through the rope with no strength reduction/damage occurring!

Tämä on ilmeisesti täysin totta. Vaikka köyden päälle astuisi kuinka jääraudoilla, se ei heikkene.

Kuva (rauta selkeästi köyden läpi):
täällä - Alpine Club of Canada

An 80 kg person stepped on the rope with new crampons, which rested on a stone surface and twisted the foot. While the rope cross section deformed, the crampon point was not able to penetrate the rope. In order to be more certain, the crampon point was hammered into the rope until the point could be felt on the other side. The mantle fibes were then removed with a hard pointy tool until the tip of the crampon was visible (see figure). This was again done 13 times at a spacing of 1.5 cm. The test results were the same as above - the rope still held nine falls.

With regular crampon use and no obious damage to the mantle, there is no need to retire a rope, if a climber steps on it with a crampon.

Some ice climbers sharpen the points of their crampons like a knife, much sharper than when they are purchased. The test was repeated with such a crampon point, which not only had a very sharp point but also sharp edges like a knife. This point penetrated the rope with the same ease as a pointed, sharp knife. The result: the rope held only four falls. While this is of some concern, a rope is still unlikely to be cut over a rock edge after such damage occurs. Furthermore, the damaged area has to be over such an edge, an unlikely event. Again it is questionable whether this damage could be reproduced when stepping on the rope in snow.

The conclusion is that damage to a rope by stepping on it has been clearly exaggerated, even with crampons.


Alkuperäinen teksti:
täällä - Alpine Club of Canada


Last edited by Sampsa J. on Mon Aug 09, 2004 18:10, edited 2 times in total.

Top
  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jun 17, 2003 09:36 
Köysien merkitsemisestä

Käytännössä tämä tarina mennee samaan kategoriaan virtsan kanssa. Siis ts tälläkään vähennyksellä ei ole merkitystä, jos köysi ei ole merkityltä kohtaa terävän kulman yli. Mutta toisaalta esimerkistä käy selkeästi ilmi, ettei noita merkintöjä pidä tehdä muualle kuin keskelle köyttä.

Middle markings, which come with a new rope and were applied by the manufacturer, are safe. Do rope manufacturers sell trustworthy markers? Mammut tested the "Rope Marker", a pen sold by Beal. The reduction was 50 % for the non-dry and 17 % for the superdry rope. Mammut tested five days and four weeks after application. The capacity reduction was more for tests done four weeks after application.

The bottom line: (for a rope, which would be safe under normal circumstances) there is a risk when the marked area is loaded by a fall over an edge. Who buys lottery tickets?


http://www.alpineclubofcanada.ca/servic ... 0Ropes.doc

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Sampsa J. on 2003-06-18 09:47 ]</font>


Top
  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jun 17, 2003 21:35 
Offline

Joined: Sat Jun 01, 2002 02:00
Posts: 119
Location: Vantaa
Kattavaa tietoa tärkeimmästä kiipeilyvälineestä!
Köysien molempien päiden tasainen käyttö ja myöskin järjen käyttö sallittua ja suotavaa.
Lohduttavaa kuulla ettei jokaisen jäärautojen kanssa tehdyn "vahingonaskeleen" jälkeen tarvitse köyttä vaihtaa!
Valitettavan useat ovat huolissaan köysien liankestosta ja vaihtotarpeesta, kun kuitenkin pitäisi keskittyä oikeanlaisten solmujen ja varmistusmenetelmien käyttöön!!! Niiden laiminlyönneistä kaikki viimeaikaiset suomalaisetkin läheltä-piti tapaukset ovat johtuneet.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jun 18, 2003 08:43 
Kasailin noita kaikkia juttuja tähän yhteen pinoon, kun asian ympärillä on leiritulilla yleensä pelkkää mystiikkaa. Onpahan jotain mistä itsekin voi tarkistaa unohduksen hetkenä.

Ylle oleva jäärautakuva on melkoisen selkeyttävä nähdä. Pojat on testatessaan painanu raudan ihan oikeasti koko köyden läpi. Toinen melkoinen ihme on iskuvoiman alhaisuus noinkin kovan köyden käytön jälkeen. Käytännössähän köyden on pitänyt olla melko huonossa hapessa tuollaisen käytön jälkeen. Joko täyttä vaijeria tai muuten täysin levinnyt. :smile:


Top
  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jun 18, 2003 13:48 
Huonoa köyttä ei kannata käyttää märkänä

Pojat testaili vuoden 2001 alussa köysiä.
Markä köysi -> no good -- jäätynyt köysi -> ok. Sama pätee myös dry-köysiin.

Tests on wet ropes were carried out on the Dodero machine (UIAA drop test). Result: ropes that held 2 falls when dry (the minimum imposed by the standards at that time) only held up to 1 fall, or none, when wet.

The alarming effect of water content on the dynamic performances of a rope has emerged from the tests: the number of falls held on the Dodero is reduced to about one third of the initial value. Such a decrease of performance has been noted on both new and used ropes, and also on both normal and waterproof treated ropes (apparently, the waterproofing additive seems to prevent water from sticking to the surface of the sheath, but doesn't stop water from entering the core of the rope). It is interesting that the effect of water is remarkable also in case of brief immersion (2 hours) and even in the case of a simple splash.

A warning must be made here concerning the meaning of the tests: it is not possible to keep the rope icy during the whole test. In spite of these uncertainties, it can be stated that the Dodero tests prove that frozen ropes behave slightly better than wet ropes: there is a smaller reduction ("only" about 50%) of the dynamic performances, and even a reduction (about -10%) of the impact force at the first fall.

As a conclusion, we may dare to guess that if we were able to maintain the rope frozen during the whole test, the results may show reasonable performances of frozen ropes; maybe almost as good as for dry ropes! At low temperature, in fact, the crystalline structure of the wet/frozen rope, in particular the mobility of its amorphous part, would be the same as that of a dry rope at normal temperature.


http://www.alpineclubofcanada.ca/servic ... 20text.rtf

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Sampsa J. on 2003-06-18 14:52 ]</font>


Top
  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jun 18, 2003 14:00 
Yhteenveto siirretty viestiketjun loppuun.


Last edited by Sampsa J. on Fri Mar 04, 2005 19:59, edited 1 time in total.

Top
  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jun 19, 2003 08:41 
Offline

Joined: Mon Dec 24, 2001 02:00
Posts: 298
Location: One Pint
Kiitos todella hyvästä informaatiosta. Käsitys kiipeilyköysistä muuttui aika lailla, esim. köyden päälle astuminenhan on aina ollut kiellettyä. Toinen asia on se että köydet todellakin ovat kestävämpiä kuin mitä on luultu.


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jun 19, 2003 08:51 
On kai se astumisen välttely vieläkin ihan kohteliasta. Mutta mitään hepulia ei tarvitse ottaa, jos joku toinen sattuu astumaan oman köyden päälle. :smile:


Top
  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jun 19, 2003 09:34 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 13, 2003 02:00
Posts: 155
Location: Oulu
Kyllä monet ulkomaanelävät pitävät köyttä aika huolettomasti. Suomessa tuntuu että ollaan välillä melkein sairaalloisen tarkkoja ettei vain astuta köydelle tai ettei köysi pölyynny tai likaannu.

Tuo mikrohalkeama juttu on kiinnostava... Saan pari sulkkaria takaisin käyttöön :smile:

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Jusaroc on 2003-06-19 10:36 ]</font>


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jun 19, 2003 11:08 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Feb 14, 2003 02:00
Posts: 301
Location: Espoo
Samalla tavalla täällä käsitellään autoja, puunataan ja vahataan. Ja ollaan melkein käsirysyssä jos marketin parkkipaikalla vähän ovi kolahtaa toisen pirssin pelteihin. Vaikka totuushan on se, että molemmat (köydet ja autot) ovat kulutustavaraa...

Toista se on suuressa maailmassa, ku molempia saa puoleen hintaan Suomeen verrattuna.

-Jannunen-


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 23 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

All times are UTC + 2 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group