Slouppi

Last weekend I had a lovely day climbing at Vanjärvi and Kvarnby. Also last weekend I managed to have my first look at the Suomen Kalliokiipeilyopas what strikes me is that:

1. Its a nice guide, the topos are easy to read and understand.

2. The grades are a mess.

This mess I believe possibly reflects the large number of part bolt part trad routes. Wouldnt it be simpler though to have totally bolted routes graded using just French sport grades. This would then free up the finnish grading system allowing it to at least partly represent the protectibility, exposure/scariness of partial/totally trad routes. An example (one of a few I have come across) of a grading oddity can be found at Nuuksio. Routes Jokisen eväät and Indiana Jones are given roughly the same grade ( depends on which topo you are looking at) of 5 but they in no way require the same level of climbing. Indiana is a bolted path to the top and requires a moderate/basic level of skill and guts where as Jokisen is a completely different, more serious, undertaking having only one bolt at 3/5 height.
I apologise if I am treading a well beaten path with this topic but since I cant read Finnish I have no idea what has been written before.
While I am typing I might as well also mention the bolts on Superhiiva at Vanjärvi.
They are daft, the first is on the floor and the second must be for a different route.

"Grades are just numbers" is not an argument

Two years ago i was on climbing trip in Finland (mostly at Olhava) and was as surprised as you were by the strangeness of the finnish grade system. I think its looks and feels so oddd because of its origin. My guess is that its were first used only for trad climbs - an they just cant get it rightly adjusted for the sport routes.
Agreed?

I wish we had this great English E-system, too, but as we are lazy and stupid Finns, we don't understand it.

Routes here in Finland get the same grade no matter what the protection. Some dangerous routes are marked with (V) after the name but not all.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Sampsa J. on 2003-05-26 20:13 ]</font>

I was never even near the thought about stupidity and lazyness, its just one case (i think), when unification seems to be a nice thing, at least in europe (i think, yankees will never go our way).

[quote]
On 2003-05-26 20:12, Sampsa J. wrote:
I wish we had this great English E-system, too, but as we are lazy and stupid Finns, we don't understand it.

I cannot tell if you are agreeing or taking the piss. Maybe you are right though in that I am just suffering from homesickness.

Maybe its different on higher grades but it seems to me that Finnish grades just tell you the hardest move on a route, not its sustainedness as French or UK grades do. This isn't a problem on little cliffs, but say at Olhava - Ukkosen johdatin (sp?) and Vekarra get the same grade - 6- but the first has 30 metre of 6- crack climbing and the other has one move of 6-; quite different propositions!

Otherwise Finnish grade seem fine. It like everywhere, there are some easy ones and some tough at each grade. I found myself yesterday on the Naantalli sea-cliffs hanging footless off an overhang with crappy holds trying to do a pullup on a route that is in the guide as 5-! Hardest 5- I've ever found.

TobyA:.I agree up to a point but take the two routes I used as an example, Indiana Jones & Jokisen eväät, are roughly the same technically when done on a top rope but grades should be based on leading difficulty. The height argument is good but I would still like to know roughly what I am up again even if the route is 10m high. Would it be too difficult to grade all sports routes with French grades and leaving Finnish grades for trad and mixed?

Agreeing. The Finnish system has its flaws but I like it.

Yes it would. I mean changing all this to topos would take ages now that the new edition is being published any day. And then there would be routes with different grading systems on same cliff and all that crap, too. Almost all crags here in Finland have both trad- and sport routes.

Lots of climbers who have started on climbing wall don't seem to think that there is much difference between top roping and leading! But personal-axe-grinding apart I think it is best to think of Finn grades a bit like US grades - at least at the level we are discussing. 5.9s can be horrendous if its a 40 metre crack with every move 5.9 or it could be one little 5.9 move next to a bolt. You have to just make an educated guess from what you can see from the ground.

Can't remember which is which at Nuuksio as I don't like the crag much but compare 'Rock Vandal' at Rollarit (5) with 'Help' (5) and 'Layback Home' (5) both Kvarnby. Rock Vandal is sustained but no real crux and well protected the whole way = HVS 5a, Help is the climbing equivalent of bare knuckle fighting, basically a complete struggle but short and safe = HVS 5b, Layback Home is badly protected with a nasty landing until you get onto the flake and thats the crux done so = E1 5a. These are my guesses. Lots and lots of 5 might make E1 5b though - do Routsalaisten Reitti at Olhava - 50 mtrs of pure climbing brilliance but it will feel like you've done an E1 by the time you finish even if the moves are probably just Eng. 5a!

If you are from Sheff you've probably done battle with Chequer Crack at Froggart - thats meant to be HVS but would probably get about Finn 7+ !

I wish this conversation had taken place before the accident known as "new" Finnish grading system got too far in the print. The grey bearded eminence might have changed view.



...some ideas are bad, some are born dead.

I cannot see that it would be so confusing.

TobyA:I have never climbed Chequer Crack. It would seem I have few large gaps in my ticked list take, for example, Wales. Rock Vandal will hopefully be on it by the end of this summer.



What accident are you refering to? is it related to the new book?

I'm saying nothing!

Various different people have told me different things, so I'm still not clear as to how much the grade changes will effect the lower grades, isn't it more about the higher grades and predominantly sports routes?

There´s been an attempt to make the Finnish grading more consistent with French grading system in the forthcoming new guide book. For some reason there is quite strong opposition
in certain groups.

edit: Toby is fast today I don´t really know how it affects lower grades, nor do I really care.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Jarkko on 2003-05-27 10:33 ]</font>

let's stick to finnish grades as they only contain numbers. french grades have letters aswell and after all grades are only numbers.